This is a follow-up to my post from yesterday, The real lesson of Hofstra: We can't empower our daughters by pretending they are powerless. The events of late Friday, when the Nassau County District Attorney Kathleen Rice decided not to charge Danmel Ndonye with a crime, only underscored my point.
There is much utility in having a high profile false rape accuser sign off on a sworn statement admitting she falsely accused young men of rape. The cackling false rape "denialists" will have a difficult time spinning the clear words of this document. And even if Ndonye had been charged, there was no guarantee of a conviction, and even less of a more substantial punishment than she voluntarily agreed to.
But ultimately that is no substitute for a criminal charge. Criminals get charged with crimes. Powerless, troubled, angelic-like beings do not. Ndonye committed a very serious crime that generally isn't treated very seriously for the reasons I discussed yesterday, and this high-profile case provided a perfect opportunity to send a powerful message that the criminal justice system does not favor one class of victims, rape victims, over another, false rape claim victims. Bronx attorney Victor Daly-Rivera, who represents one of the young false rape claim victims here, said it best: "We feel that the law was broken and she should be made to answer for that," Daly-Rivera said. "People are prosecuted all the time for filing false insurance claims and things like that . . . When you compare that to accusing four men of rape, it sort of pales by comparison." The step-mother of one of the young men agreed: "He still gets flashbacks," she said. "It's not fair. She has to pay for that. All the family got hurt because of her."
Rice issued a statement justifying her decision not to charge Ndoyne with a crime: "There exists no perfect solution to this case, only our best attempt at holding her accountable while encouraging real victims to come forward and accusers to tell the truth, so that we can avoid incarcerating an innocent person for even one minute."
That is code-speak for the following: "We mustn't do anything to interfere with the real war, the war on rape. Victims of false rape claims be damned." Rice threw four innocent young minority men under the bus in the interest of appeasing the politicized sexual grievance industry.
And Rice's timing was perfect, Simple Justice explained: "Timing is key to the success of this maneuver. By Monday, when people get back to paying attention to the news, this will be an old story. The Saturday paper is the least read paper of the week. Over the weekend, nobody will know. By Monday, nobody will care."
Rice isn't the only culprit here. The lenient statutory laws of New York that treat this sort of misconduct as practically non-criminal are also the problem. As Ellis Hennican said: "Even if the young woman were charged, Rice added, state law only allows for a misdemeanor. Is New York law really that weak? A person can accuse another of a horrible felony without facing any serious charge? Maybe that's where this discussion should turn next."
The bottom line about Rice's statement? Simple Justice sums it up: "It does . . . have a strong connection to encouraging false accusations, since the conditions of counseling and community services offer little disincentive to not take the risk." As I explained yesterday, we live not in a rape culture but in a false rape culture "where it is far more important to protect our daughters than our sons, so even far-fetched allegations of rape, even the possibility of rape, are not endured for one moment, but false rape claims that destroy our sons are not merely tolerated, they are tacitly encouraged."
But, hey, at least The New York Times ran an AP story that not only printed the false accuser's name but explained how it is pronouced (en-DAHN'-yeh). Now if only the Times would explain how an entire class of victims continually are forced to watch as the persons who harmed them walk away unpunished, well, maybe then the Times would be making a worthwhile contribution to issues related to gender crimes instead of being just a mouthpiece for misandrists.
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129 comments:
How did you get hold of a copy of the statement?
Pierce, I accept that this site as about false rape claims, ONLY.
However, it may be worthwhile to note that this behaviour and attitude and culture does not apply to false rape victims only, for they are not that great in number as a proportion of the population.
The EXACT same ethos and SOP is blatantly in evidence in the divorce/separation and child custody area of family law.
As I should know, basically all my false accusations were centred around an ongoing attempt to separate me permanently from my child.
AfOR
Anon at 10:57: it was posted in one of the news stories, thankfully.
Anon at 11:08: I agree 100%. What we are presenting is just one side of a misandry prism. The same biases against males are found in many issues.
What Kathleen Rice really means is that she doesn't want to draw attention to the falsely convicted who didn't tape the orgy, who are rotting in prison for nothing. She doesn't want even a single false rape accuser held accountable because she doesn't want her profession held accountable. She knows that this is a Pandora's box.
Gee, it's almost like consensual sex is not really consensual anymore and is somehow political.
Hey wait a minute....
you don't think that....
feminism....
somehow....
maybe....
had anything to do with....
Oh stop it! Just stop it!
Sadly, the only way a male can protect himself even partially from demented females or from the criminally-minded females using the false accusation/sue in civil court method of wealth gaining is to eliminate females from your life.
No touching, reduce all contact as much as possible, view every female has a dangerous threat and even that may not be enough to protect you.
The need for the Females as Property Movement shouts out loudly across the land.
The demented daffy dames need to be protected from themselves while males, our country, culture and society needs to be protected from the masses of infantile, illogical, irrational and emotion-laden ding dames.
LIE DETECTOR #58
Some young women believe that false rape is a right and a choice.
TRUE
Why? 40 years of feminist propaganda conditioning society. "There is no such thing as false rape."
The young woman thinks, "Kewl, I can use this."
Sadly, the only way a male can protect himself even partially from demented females or from the criminally-minded females using the false accusation/sue in civil court method of wealth gaining is to eliminate females from your life.
************************
That really isn't true. If you avoid sex with strangers and only associate with women of good character then you should be all right. The problem isn't that all women are doing this, but that the minority who are liars and criminals are being enabled to do it.
Abstaining from sex is no guarantee that you won't be falsely accused, anyway.
If you avoid sex with strangers and only associate with women of good character then you should be all right.
Malarky. I know of several men who have been falsely accused by their own wives, in one case after 37 years of marriage. In another case, a friend was accused of molesting his own daughters to provide leverage in a contentious custody battle.
As one of our resident trolls claimed that since all men have a penis were are "potential rapists", so is every woman who has a tongue a potential "false accuser."
Abstaining from sex is no guarantee that you won't be falsely accused, anyway.
That's true, but it does eliminate the area of "gray rape" where the question is not whether sex took place or not, but whether "consent was obtained." Unlike the Hofstra-rape-lie case, where the issue was not sex, but "consent", it moves it more into the area of the Duke-rape-lie case, where the fact that sex took place at all was the substance of the lie.
For men over a certain age, given both our own declining libidos and the plummeting attractiveness of women our age, abstinence becomes an increasingly obvious and preferred choice.
I am seeing a trend in the comments and I want to go on the record to state my disagreement with it. I do not agree with the movement urging separation from women. I simply don't. It is true that virtually any male can be the victim of a false rape claim, but false rape claims become far more common in certain situations (e.g., one-night-stands where drinking is involved; messy break-ups of long-term relationships; divorces) and to men in certain professions (esp. police officers, cab drivers, priests, and school teachers). Men in those situations or professions need to take all prudent steps to protect themselves. For the rest of us, we will never eliminate all risk from our lives, but we don't stop driving merely because of the risk of being hit by a drunk or other negligent driver. Most men and women are able to get along just fine without false charges or assaults being hurled by one one or the other. I know that this generalization is contrary to the experience of some of our readers, for which I am truly sorry, and I am not telling you you are stupid; nor am I saying you can't disagree. I am merely stating the position of this blog.
I do think it's important to take a step back every once in a while: false rape claims are so incredibly easy to make, I often marvel there aren't even more of them. I think it's because most women -- like most men -- are basically decent people.
Well said, Pierce. Women aren't all bad.
Pierce, I've just been the victim, the process is ongoing, and my attitude is "when you fall off the horse, get straight back on."
I am not advocating insanity, I am not advocating "get yerself another woman cloned from the last"
Personally my solution is to import a woman (why not, cars, computers, food are all imported) who has not been subject to the western brainwashing thing.
(makes one hell of a documented case for consent, too... lol)
Women are beautiful, just because a (small) percentage of them are psychopaths is no reason to miss out on the rest.
FIGHT, do not abandon the territory to the psycho-bitches.
AfOR
Pierce Harlan said...
I am seeing a trend in the comments and I want to go on the record to state my disagreement with it. I do not agree with the movement urging separation from women. I simply don't.
And you don't have to. I'm sure you can establish a policy which forbids these comments if you so choose.
But, you have to realize that a lot of factors related to misandry are at work in this culture. We have a couple of resident trolls who are perfect examples of women that seem would be complete agony to be emotionally involved with. Each woman like that shrinks the pool of potential mates, as does every woman in a successful marriage. And, every encounter with them strengthens the impression that this the face of contemporary womanhood.
Feminism has poisoned women's minds against men, and rendered most of the previous reasons and motivations for becoming involved with them impossible in todays climate of gender war. At some point, men must be affored the right to be full human beings with wishes, desires, and emotions which figure into the dating/mating process.
It is not just the possibility of a false rape accusation, but the entire view of sex that dictates that a man must acquire "consent" which sterotypically casts the man as the intiator overcoming female resistance. Among teenagers this works well because of the biological circumstances of that age and the mechanics of fertility.
However, past a certain age, which a great many men who have lived with feminists as their potential partners their entire lives are now reaching, the drive is no longer there nor is the biological magnetism of our potential partners. It becomes an odious and burdensome task at times, and certainly not something for which we are willing to take on some sort of implied debt.
It is no more right to force us through social pressure or coercion to continue to play a role in courtship which plays into the very same stereotypes which make false rape accusations possible - the male as the eternally horny beast in a perpetual state of rut - than it is to force a woman to have sex that she honestly does not want to have.
What is worse is the relentless psychological pounding of men with the "RAPIST RAPIST RAPIST ALL SEX IS RAPE" mantra. It is not possible to hear that thousands of times and maintain a bullet-proof denial that even some women, much less the majority of women, believe otherwise. And, it poisons the experience for us. There is a reason it has been termed "making love", yet we have a very Victorian sex-hating mentality which has taken over the culture. It is not possible to maintain a view of it as a positive and wonderful thing, when every cultural message out there paints in the nastiest and most vile terms possible.
False accusations and this entire rape hysteria harm not only the falsely accused and "real' rape victims, but also every unmated woman out there by convincing their pool of potential mates that our attentions are decidedly unwelcome and that acceptance must be purchased by some sort of emotional or material pandering.
Men at that "Viagra age" see absolutely no point in paying $6 for a blue pill which temporarily gives them the ability to do what so many women regard as "rape" anyway. The culture has poisoned all desire that a lot of men have, and there is no mechanism to force us to continue in the face of that.
One caveat: even though most women would not lie about rape, that does not mean that a huge percentage of rape accusations aren't false! The women who do lie do it a lot.
Anon at 4:53, I have no intention of banning comments like yours. I don't agree with it, not because I don't think it makes good points, but because I think it overstates the problem, it simplifies a very complex set of circumstances and misses all sorts of nuance.
Like this comment: "Feminism has poisoned women's minds against men, and rendered most of the previous reasons and motivations for becoming involved with them impossible in todays climate of gender war."
Wow! I think if I believed that, I'd kill myself. At some point, I need to do a post on this. I really don't think the hyperbole is helpful to what we're trying to do, but, hey, that's just my opinion.
Put it this way: as Heather MacDonald's landmark campus rape article points out about so-called "rape culture" on college campuses -- the one group on campus that doesn't buy it is the students, that is, the vast majority of female students. They refuse to mistake the smell of bullshit for male oppression. So, too, I think that the average person wouldn't think your statement that I've quoted above comports with their experience. It goes too far.
I mean, I read some of the comments here and it sounds like "men" are being treated like the humans in the old "Planet of the Apes" films. In some respects men are being terribly unjustly treated -- I just think we need to pick our spots.
But, hey, what do I know?
Anon @ 5:53 wrote
Each woman like that shrinks the pool of potential mates, as does every woman in a successful marriage.
Dude, the ONLY thing on this planet in greater supply than pussy is oxygen.
So, you're in your 40's and you can't find a decent 40 year old woman, hell with it, get a 20 year old woman, firmer flesh, less attitude, less power...
not that I should complain, guys "opting out" are the same as homosexuals, just leaves more for the rest of us.
THE FACTS ARE, that any man who thinks he cannot pull a decent woman is himself proof that the brainwashing of western civilisation extends to men as well as women.
YOU CAN.
AfOR
Opting out isn't going to win this. Half a million men contributing $100/year for the rest of their lives will win it.
AfOR- please know that I do understand but at the same time, please know that there ARE decent western women here.
As you know my husband is in jail for a crime he did not commit yet had sexual contact with another woman.
I am standing behind him and supporting him because I KNOW he didn't committ a crime. He disregarded his vows to me but that doesn't mean he deserves prison.
If we are lucky and the charges are dropped, then we will deal with salvaging our marriage. He will then deal with my anger for his cheating. I just told him at last visitation that the marriage was not the priority, it was proving his innocence.
Point--not all of us are hateful, spiteful, criminals:)
CBGirl
The one point I would make is that some of our readers have gone through terrible experiences with specific women and have lost the ability to trust. I won't presume to lecture them about stereotyping, etc., because a lot of them are hurting right now, and some of them are speaking out of pain and despair. I understand this because I hear it from a lot of guys. So please know I'm not here to reprimand anyone. Most of all, I'd love for them to find healing, maybe through a wise and good woman who understands what they're going through.
CBgirl
I hear you, my beef isn't with people like you, whether they be male or female.
I'm just making the point, just cos some apples are rotten, not all apples are rotten, and also, just because some apples are rotten, there is no need to swear off apples, and also, just because old apples are in short supply, nothing stopping you eating younger apples.
AfOR
Like this comment: "Feminism has poisoned women's minds against men, and rendered most of the previous reasons and motivations for becoming involved with them impossible in todays climate of gender war."
Wow! I think if I believed that, I'd kill myself. At some point, I need to do a post on this. I really don't think the hyperbole is helpful to what we're trying to do, but, hey, that's just my opinion.
Let me give you an example of what I mean. I quit dating about 15 years ago as a result of sort of "false accusation." The circumstances of it are subtle and nuanced.
A woman who I had spent most of year getting to know and I finally "took the plunge" and we became "intimate." The "honeymoon" period didn't last a week before she need to surface an "issue" which was bothering her. The fact that I had an old copy of Playboy lying around made her "so afraid that I might be a rapist, or a serial killer, or a child molester."
You can say whatever you want to about college kids these days, but I was out of college while Nixon was still president. Women my age are profoundly confused and conflicted about sex. Most of my married friends are in sexless marriages due to their wives' choice.
Anyone who wishes to have an intimate relastionship with a woman who entertains serious fears that he is some sort of criminal is welcome to. However, there is no emotional content there which would interest me, and not being 17 or 19 anymore, the sex is certainly not a compelling enough draw to make it worth it.
I work with a number of divorced women in their 50s, and none of them give the slightest interest in any sort of romantic endeavors. It seems that for a lot of boomers that the fish and the bicycles have drifted off into their separate worlds which have no overlap besides work and no relevance to each other.
I could go on at length about the unbelievably callous and obnoxious way I have been treated by women in my life, or of all the married women I know who are cheating on their husbands, or the high percentage of women that I have dated over the years who have gotten both married and divorced since I dated them (for reasons which I am sure are related to why I only dated and never married them) but it would be a waste of time because your experience is, apparently, entirely different.
But, a lot of us boomer men have been hearing since we came of age how women without us are like fish without bicycles, how little they need us, want us, or even like us. And, every Valentines day we are treated to a constant barrage of messages about how we have to buy our way out of inevitable emotional abuse through the purchase of volumes of useless trinkets.
So, if you want us to shut up all you have to do is say so. But, the narrative of the past 40 years has been told entirely in women's voices and there are lot more and more subtle effects of misandry than false accusations.
AfOR
I know you weren't talking about me. lol I am one of "us" here. ;)
I am just sorry you have had to go through all of this mess. I do understand your frustration and your anger. I have it too. I trust no one anymore and am afraid of my own shadow. I am left here out in the boonies alone with no protection from the 'boogie man'.
Trust me, I do understand!
(((HUGS)))
CBGirl
...."but the entire view of sex that dictates that a man must acquire "consent" which sterotypically casts the man as the intiator overcoming female resistance."
Amen.
That is heterosexuality in a nutshell. I believe that most het sex out there is "gray consent".
Pierce said:
"Wow! I think if I believed that, I'd kill myself."
Really? Interesting. Sex means that much to you.
Point--not all of us are hateful, spiteful, criminals:)
No one is saying you are, CBGirl. You are one of the few women who frequent here that I do respect.
But, first of all you are taken by someone else. And, second, there are enough women out there who really are hateful spiteful people that dealing with them simply gradually erodes away any optimism, motivation, or reason to seek them out.
The stereotypic structure of the mating dance dictates that the man is the "designated initiator." This is what makes false accusations work - because in the Hofstra case, even if the woman actually initiated things, absolutely no one will believe that.
So, if a woman my age would take the intiative to indicate an interest in me, I would not be overtly hostile. Of course, pigs will fly before that happens because single women my age revert to the behaviors they used when they were 16, and have not grown older along side a man and understand the changes he has gone through just like they have gone through changes.
Amen.
That is heterosexuality in a nutshell. I believe that most het sex out there is "gray consent".
Which, of course, turns into "gray rape."
Anon at 5;38 -- I have read that the widely referenced 50% divorce is because of the generation that you're in. The divorce rate is nowhere near that high for other generations, but you hit it at exactly the wrong time: women were being told that they don't need men, etc. Most of the awful man-hating feminist quotes that we always read were spoken during that era. Positively toxic. I actually think gender relations between younger people are healthier today, but I would love to see a serious study on how that sort of hateful thinking screwed up a generation of men.
and also, just because some apples are rotten, there is no need to swear off apples,
What if every time you take a bite of an apple it makes you sick? Do you think people should start holding guns to men's heads and forcing them to eat apples if they gag on them?
Anon at 5:45: Sex is a normal part of life and a fundamental biological urge for most people. Me, I'm very happily married.
I know no one was speaking about me:) I know 'the type' we discuss here, promise.
I agree with you about so many women out there being so spiteful, hateful, etc. I have learned a lot in the past 3 months, just not about the false accusers but about how Law Enforcement treats the accused with exhorbant bail amounts, plastering lies in the papers, and mistreating inmates.
CBGirl
Anon at 5;38 -- I have read that the widely referenced 50% divorce is because of the generation that you're in. The divorce rate is nowhere near that high for other generations, but you hit it at exactly the wrong time: women were being told that they don't need men, etc. Most of the awful man-hating feminist quotes that we always read were spoken during that era. Positively toxic. I actually think gender relations between younger people are healthier today, but I would love to see a serious study on how that sort of hateful thinking screwed up a generation of men.
**********
The divorce rate here is also much higher than in other countries. The US is uniquely androphobic.
Whoa some of the replies here are pretty scary. One thing some of you have to look out for is becoming the mirror image of the man hating feminist you hate. There is quite a lot of injustice towards men but you can't let it turn you into a bitter lonely fool without the ability to truly critically think. A lot of the responses here might as well be taken from some crazy feminist site and just inverted. I've perused a few MRA sites recently and it's quite disappointing that some are just as blind and weak minded as feminists.
Yeah, an awful lot of anti woman sentiment. Not by Pierce and Steve but some of the comments.
Positively toxic. I actually think gender relations between younger people are healthier today, but I would love to see a serious study on how that sort of hateful thinking screwed up a generation of men.
That may be true, although my 45 y/o nephew and 22 y/o great nephew have not had experiences any better than mine. At 22, my great nephew has run into several girls who cheated on him, at least one young woman I'm pretty sure had BPD, and has decided to drop out of the dating game for a while and concentrate on his studies.
I'm sure you know who Amanda Marcote is. Realize that she is among some young men's pool of potential mates, and that there are a lot of other girls that age who hang on what is said at feministing like gospel. Life as a monk is far preferable to being tied to someone like her - which I would think would be pure agony.
It's like a quote that I think is by Socrates - "By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you will be happy. If you don't, you will become a philosopher."
Yeah, Pierce, the boomers have made a right mess of the whole marriage picture. I hope that those younger than us don't make such a mess of it, but with 40% of all children being born outside of marriage, I'm not so sure where things are headed.
"Whoa some of the replies here are pretty scary."
Give some examples.
"Whoa some of the replies here are pretty scary."
Give some examples.
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
Charge of Endangerment (Code Orange) – The Elevated Threat Charge
Discussion: The target is accused of being a menace in some undefined manner. This charge may be coupled with some attempt to censor the target. Examples:
“You guys are scary.”
“You make me feel afraid.”
Response: It may be constructive to point out that only bigots and tyrants are afraid of having the truth expressed to them. One may also ask why some women think they can handle leadership roles if they are so threatened by a man’s legitimate freedom of expression.
There is quite a lot of injustice towards men but you can't let it turn you into a bitter lonely fool without the ability to truly critically think.
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)
Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues. Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable. Examples:
“You’re bitter!”
“You need to get over your anger at women.”
“You are so negative!”
Response: Anger is a legitimate emotion in the face of injustice. It is important to remember that passive acceptance of evil is not a virtue.
Charge of Fanaticism (Code Brown) – The Brown Shirts Charge
Discussion: The target is accused of subscribing to an intolerant, extremist ideology or of being devoted to an ignorant viewpoint. Examples:
“You’re one of those right-wing wackos.”
“You’re an extremist”
“You sound like the KKK.”
“… more anti-feminist zaniness”
Response: One should remember that the truth is not decided by the number of people subscribing to it. Whether or not certain ideas are “out of the mainstream” is besides the point. A correct conclusion is also not necessarily reached by embracing some middle ground between two opposing viewpoints (i.e., the logical fallacy of “False Compromise”).
Note, the "you're just like the feminists" is a somewhat recent embellishment to the standard method of minimizing what the man is saying - supposedly on the theory that we are so dedicated to not being like "feminists" that if someone told us that they breathe and eat we would stop doing those things because we don't want to be like them.
The addition of the word "fool" was a rather nice touch, I might add. Overall, I would give it a 5.1 on a scale of 6.
You just gave a perfect example of how some of you are just reverse feminists. The MRA's use of "shaming language". So when I'm discussing something with a feminist I have to endure whining about sexist language and listen to inane examples of how to speak without offending.
Now it seems when I discuss anything with a MRA I have to listen to inane whining about shaming language. "Oooh everything I say is fantastic and if you point out the faults you're sexist!! It's never that I may be wrong" It's silly. It's weak minded. All it is is feminism. Sad.
This thread is not about hated, it is about reality. Gray-rape and gray-consent really exist. Gray-consent is an inter-woven part of heterosexuality. It is as old as time. It should concern men, but sadly it doesn't because to men when it comes to sex, the ends justify the means. The fact is most women express sexuality with men for reasons other than desire. This is one area I agree with the feminists on because this is a hard, cold fact. Heterosexuality is a paradox because most heterosexual sex is gray-consent. It's just not talked about or admitted. Alcohol, drugs, manipulation, blackmail and societal expectations all play a big part in heterosexual norms. When you think about it, heterosexuality is weird stuff.
Is all sex rape?
It's up to her.
"Now it seems when I discuss anything with a MRA I have to listen to inane whining about shaming language. "Oooh everything I say is fantastic and if you point out the faults you're sexist!! It's never that I may be wrong" It's silly. It's weak minded. All it is is feminism. Sad.
One of the interesting differences between feminists and MRAs is the use of language.
Feminists, for instance, may all vary on what 'Feminism' means, but they remain loyal to the word 'Feminism'. To my mind, it has always been extraordinary that so many women could promote a world-view based on their own identity, and named after it, and expect others to recognize it as representing their interests as well. This in itself indicates a denial of men's legitimacy.
MRAs, on the other hand, rarely use the term 'Masculist'. It just hasn't stuck. They instead use terms that mean what they say: 'Mens Rights Advocate', 'Men Going Their Own Way', even 'Pick-up Artists'. There is no loyalty to a banner that means everything that men do is right and fair. Men do not assert that men's interests are the same as women's.
So the accusation that the evolution of men's rights awareness and feminism are mirror images fails at even the shallowest of analysis.
If the signs of men progressing toward legal change that reflects a negotiated compromise of interests disturbs you, a more effective response (but by no means the best) would be to put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes.
As for the increasing number of comments from men wanting to separate from women, I can't help but see the enormous political value in it.
Even though the Hofstra case is still fresh on everyone's minds, it soon won't be. Does anyone seriously think legal reforms are on the horizon now? Has anyone heard any politician mention legislative change? How many times have we seen women caught out lying like this, then given a pass? How many times can we keep on seeing the same thing happen, and expect it not to happen again with the same monotonous regularity?
If we want change, we have to do something different, and if we don't know what the ideal thing to do is, then we do anything. An increase in men forsaking the company of women and handing them all to those men who can't live without them would be such an enormous societal change that I can't help but speculate that it would frighten those in power to be more responsive to what most men want. A large body of detached, unhappy men is the biggest threat to any society (and is probably the core of a yet to be born one).
This thread is not about hated, it is about reality. Gray-rape and gray-consent really exist. Gray-consent is an inter-woven part of heterosexuality. It is as old as time. It should concern men, but sadly it doesn't because to men when it comes to sex, the ends justify the means.
My personal is experience is that just about all "consent" is "gray consent." How many times have we heard about women "giving off signals" and then going off about how stupid men are because the didn't pick up on them. In my life I've never experienced, and only heard of one or two cases that I didn't really believe, of a woman saying "I want you, NOW!"
There are a couple of things going on here that I want to point out, because they are germane to the purpose of this site.
The first is a rather remarkable double standard going on even here. A woman can have a single traumatic experience which affects her life for years, perhaps the rest of her life, and people understand that. If a woman had been raped, for example, and it affected her in such a way that she really didn't want to have relationships in the future, I don't think she would get a lot of push-back.
But, let a man say, in effect, "Nah, I spent my 30 years in the Army of Occupation left behind by the sexual revolution, and I'm tired of it, I'm not going to re-up" and no matter how many good and valid personal reasons he gives for it, people - both men and women - are all over him like a bad rash? "You're just a bitter old fool!" "You CAN'T quit. You HAVE TO 'get back out there!""
Now, why is that? I have some theories about that which I will get to in a moment. But first, I am going to point out that, no, I don't "HAVE TO" "get back out there."
When I was a teenager, the US was involved in a little conflagration over in SE Asia which required guys my age to be conscripted and sent over there to shoot at little yellow guys who had never done anything to us except shoot back. I really couldn't blame them, given the circumstances. If some guy said "Hell no, I won't go", the US Marshals came after him and dragged him to an induction center in handcuffs and leg irons.
Now, if someone wants to send the US Marshals after me and drag me back into the "dating" nightmare in leg irons and handcuffs, I suppose I won't have much choice.
But, that will pretty well knock into a cocked hat this whole nonsense about a "rape culture."
And, there is the reason why everyone is so threatened when a man even so much as mentions "going John Galt" and quitting - because if men quit being the "designated initiators" of relationships, then relationships stop happening.
The problem for men is that the "designated initiator" role is now the equivalent of the "designated perpetrator" and filling this role not only exposes him to false accusations, it creates a dating dynamic in which the narrative demands that he is the one who wants the relationship more than she does.
A good friend of mine is going through a very tough time right now because his wife informed him that, after 37 years of marriage, his sex life is over. She has never liked it, never really wanted to do it, and the only reason she did was when she wanted something from him. Well, now she has everything she wanted so - tough b'zoogies, dude.
I know a couple that I get together with socially in a large group once in a while, and no gathering goes by without her finding some way to humiliate him by telling everyone present how she denies him sex.
Now, of course, none of these lengthy descriptions are going to mean squat to anyone, because their entire purpose is to deny the message, and shooting the messenger is a perfectly acceptable way to do that.
I'll keep an eye out for the Federal Marshals.
As wonderful as this blog is, it's not going to change anything in society. It's just a powerless blog.
An increase in men forsaking the company of women and handing them all to those men who can't live without them would be such an enormous societal change that I can't help but speculate that it would frighten those in power to be more responsive to what most men want.
Actually, I don't think that will happen and that the actual response will be to try to find ways to extend the police state - like imposing a "Bachelor Tax" the way that Ancient Rome did.
MGTOW is not a strategy for social change, although the results may end up catalyzing that. It is simply more of an adaptation to a legal climate which flatly denies and refutes social and biological realities of the behavior of both men and women.
Knowing full well that being male is all the reason most women need to try to deny, refute, invalidate, and if possible silence what I am saying, I'll let a woman say it -
"The ego epidemic: How more and more of us women have an inflated sense of our own fabulousness
By Lucy Taylor"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1213212/The-ego-epidemic-more-inflated-sense-fabulousness.html
Us women are more egocentric and narcissistic than we ever used to be, according to extensive research by two leading psychologists.
More of us have huge expectations of ourselves, our lives and everyone in them. We think the universe resolves around us, with a deluded sense of our own fabulousness, and believe we are cleverer, more talented and more attractive than we actually are.
We have trouble accepting criticism and extending empathy because we are so preoccupied with ourselves.
See, that's a woman saying it. Can't argue with that, can we? Isn't the rule "always believe a woman"?
As wonderful as this blog is, it's not going to change anything in society. It's just a powerless blog.
Ah, but I don't have to wait for "society" to change. I can make changes in my own behavior (like NOT walking into a bar wearing sexy clothes and no panties) which will have a direct effect on the quality and outcomes of my own life. I don't have to wait for everyone and everything else to change, and I don't have to consult anyone or get their agreement.
In some ways, the feminists were right, men do have power - because we can make our own choices.
"If you avoid sex with strangers and only associate with women of good character then you should be all right"
The problem is, any time you first meet a woman, she is a stranger.
-----------------------------
I would like to make a couple general comments on the idea of separating men from women:
1)This is precisely the scenario that radical feminists are pursuing. And my saying this is not some kind of unrealistic 'doomsday scenario' that some guys here easily shrug off. Those of you who do so are miserably uninformed. A good book to read on this is 'Legalizing Misandry' by Nathanson and Young, Ph.D.'s
2) Now as regards to whether men should fight the possibly of this coming about by going ahead and getting married, it would behoove you to read 'Taken Into Custody' by Stephen Baskerville, Ph.D. He flatly recommends men not get married in the current envirionment, especially with the family court system being what it is.
I have stated this in the past, and it too has been regarded here by some guys as 'extreme'.
Gentlemen, if you disregard nos. one and two above, you are not only wrong but are almost contributing to the problem.
Is all sex rape?
It's up to her.
You got THAT right!
Norm, that's a really nutty stance to take, and I would think only a tiny minority of men would agree with your views on marriage and sex. Men and women NEED each other! ... biologically, socially, etc. For a moment, forget the radical feminists and the radical MRAs. As a man, WHAT ARE YOU SEARCHING FOR in the long haul of life?
As for myself, I cannot imagine life without my husband ... and I dread the thought of ever being without him.
So... when all is said and done, what kind of legacy do you want to leave behind? I would ask the same of ALL of the MRAs here.
"Men and women NEED each other! "
No, you are wrong. The radical feminists are after the following two scenarios;
Men are universally to become second class citizens, with need for them by women only to be the minimum required for reproductive needs,
Or, 2) Men are universally to become second class, with absolutely no need for them by women except indirectly via in vitro fertilization, sperm donation ect.
You are WRONG. Read the two books I mentioned, or at least skim through them.
"As for myself, I cannot imagine life without my husband ... "
What does that prove?? You don't sound intelligent enought to be on this board.
Norm, I'm not intelligent enough to be on this blog?
Lordy, I rest my case!
Insulting those who disagree with you only makes you look MORE foolish!
Omit the insults. Insults do NOTHING to further your cause.
Norm: the understatement of the year!
What does that prove?? You don't sound intelligent enought to be on this board
Hahaha... if this was said by someone who was debating a MRA this line would be taken as "Boo Hoo!!! you're using "shaming language"!". Wow some of you ARE feminists.
I know that some of you love to quote ALAN DUTCHYWITZ (course I skewed his name), by quoting one of his quips: "Better that a hundred rapists slip thru the system than for one innocent man to go to jail" (or something like that).
By the same token, how about THIS:
"Better for a thousand false accusers to go free than for one innocent accuser to be convicted of filing a false police report."
Now, does this put us on the same page?
Only gender feminist dominated countries do not charge false rape accusers. It is a perversion, and a mens/boys basic civil rights issue...to not charge false rape accusers.
anon/atom,
Are you saying it's not true? What are you talking about, anyway? WHAT are you talking about??
Why do we tolerate trolls on this blog?
atom/anon,
the only page you're is page 427 of the DSM - the one about delusional thinking. And yes, I am trying to shame you ...DUNCE!!
Mrs. Atom: When was the last reported wrongful conviction of a false rape claim?
A-troll should just be banned. Her pathetic personal attacks and endorsement of violence against the Hofstra victims is more than we should tolerate.
If you can make serious arguments that's different, but we shouldn't tolerate a moron who has nothing to contribute. If you don't understand the importance of protecting the victims of false rape accusations and punishing the criminals then you shouldn't be here.
Guys,
Just ignore Atom and Jeana. They're both man hating, feminazi trolls who are attention whores! Starve them of the attention they seek, and they'll go away.
MarkyMark
"Men and women NEED each other!"
No, men and women are like fish and bicycles. I've gotten quite used to having no rust on my gears or slime on my seat.
And best of all....
ABSOLUTELY NO DRAMA!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Jeana and I are not Nazi's, we are not Trolls, and we are not Whores.
And YOU sir, are no Gentleman! And that's why (or at least part of the reason) you have miserably failed in your relationships with women in general.
WAKE UP! Get your life in order, beginning tomorrow.
Send your blue-gun thugs after me with the handcuffs and leg irons, then I guess we'll have to talk.
Until then, Happy Trails to you...
In closing, I would just like to say that for each and every one of you there is a BETTER life waiting. Don't be pro-active ... go after it. Everyone of you deserves to be happy.
Just ignore Atom and Jeana. They're both man hating, feminazi trolls who are attention whores! Starve them of the attention they seek, and they'll go away.
We deserve a break from the trolls. BAN BAN BAN BAN
"And that's why (or at least part of the reason) you have miserably failed in your relationships with women in general."
LOL! What a moron.
You know, I wouldn't mind arguing some of the points that a-troll raised, questioning the importance of a presumption of innocence AND the importance of punishing false rape accusers, and why the two and perfectly consistent.
But I don't see much point in discussing it with HER, considering that she's a conceited toddler who thinks that "Alan Duckiwitz" is witty and who thinks that it's okay to call for the Hofstra victims to be euthanized.
Bring in a feminist troll with at least some maturity and reasoning skills, okay?
"Concerning," not "questioning."
Another thing that has to do with this is that just as some of the guys here have gone mainly on their own bad experiences to form opinions of women, others have gone mainly on their own good ones to form theirs. 'bias' works both ways.
Denying most females voting privileges will be a start.
Allowing the few adult-minded rational logical females the vote is fine.
I truly believe that the majority of females will be better off in a society where the Females as Property Movement exerts itself.
Society, country and culture will also improve and I believe there will be less danger to males from the daffy dames spewing their false accusations.
Unlike today, a false accusation will have grievous penalties for females.
I become so angered when the unAmerican Ad Council endlessly spews those radio ads about teaching your boy to NEVER hit a woman yet nary a peep to mothers about teaching their daughters to never lie about a male, to not use any of the horde of organizations of all types to attack males for emotional reasons, to retaliate by proxy for some perceived or created slight.
Nor any mention of females using violence against a male, who apparently is expected to stand there and be abused. Or try to avoid what could even be killing blows until an escape route is available.
Just one of many double-standards in our society.
Just as a male is likely to be unable to truly understand the various trauma involved with an actual female rape I believe that few females possess enough empathy to truly understand what a male feels when a false accusation comes his way AND the over-all anti-male atmosphere in today's society and culture AND so many of our governmental agencies confront a male.
And the too-often valid view that a male has to prove innocence vice "the system" having to prove guilt.
Then toss in that to many societal members, the idiotic bleating indoctrinated non-thinking sheep/citizens, an accusation is as good as a conviction so who can blame a male from distancing himself from females as much as possible along with refraining from involvement with what more than a few folks believe is a sick disgusting society unworthy of the contributions of decent moral males.
"So why don't you move and live somewhere else," I can 'hear' the indoctrinated ones spew.
I quit answering the brainwashed buffoons proudly spewing their knee-jerk rhetoric who are unaware their rehearsed rehashed responses reveal their limited intellect as they babble what a multitude of other mentally feeble deluded droids have been taught to do.
In the long-run, demographics may catch up with the "feminists."
Just wait until the cultures from the south that are invading the USA and via much higher birth-rates and due to a lack of assimilation become the majority culture in the USA. Cultures where my decades of observation revealed how many of those culture's males view females as chattel, mere property, that WILL obey the man.
Add in the growing percentage of Muslims with their intertwined religion and cultures and their semi-similarities to the Females as Property Movement.
Let the so-called wonders of diversity and multi-culturalism replace the climate feminism sprouted in and females may learn how things can be and may be relegated back to a state and condition more akin to the 1800s and earlier.
And I believe many females deserve that fate.
Not all, there are a few decent females out there but not enough.
May be some rough years ahead for the spoiled little "precious princesses" that have had their way for so long.
Revel in it.
As the PC brainwashed mob babbles... "Diversity is our strength!!!!"
Uh... yeah, whatever you say.
The future will tell if the conditions of the last 35 years continue.
As I suspected, Ndonye probably didn't even have sex with all 5 men. As reported in the NY Post here:
"Ortiz and Bedward adamantly denied having sex with Ndonye.
"I was so embarrassed and I am so upset," Ortiz said. "I have a great girlfriend at home. Why would I do something like this to another person?"
This is consistent with other false gang-rape accusations. All men are accused in order to destroy their credibility and testimony.
Last year a similar false multiple-rape allegation was made against members of the England Rugby team in a hotel by an 18 year old. She accused 2 men of raping her and 2 of taking part after her boyfriend wanted her to account for her whereabouts. As it transpired, she had consensual sex with one, than with his friend later. The other two weren't in the room at the time and only got named because they put their heads in the door in the morning to get the guys on with their schedule. It was then they saw the girl and she saw them, and to destroy them as potential witnesses, she made sure to include them in her subsequent claim.
Story here.
yes anon,
but now people will say those two guys should have stopped the other three.
Can't win fer losin'
but now people will say those two guys should have stopped the other three.
How do we know there were 3? The guy with the video camera never got called in for questioning, so we haven't heard his version of events.
In fact, we haven't heard any explanation of what actually happened - only what didn't.
That's one of the consequences of the police continuously dropping charges and trying to sweep these crimes under the carpet. We don't ever get an informed view of female behavior, what motivates it and how consistent it is from crime to crime. We're denied any opportunity to compare a false rape crime with all its predecessors.
I don't think this aspect of false rape accusation lenience has slipped by prosecutors unnoticed, and so I can't believe this unnatural void of information for what is a common enough crime to be accidental (at least common enough to keep Pierce busy posting a new one every day).
That's one of the consequences of the police continuously dropping charges and trying to sweep these crimes under the carpet. We don't ever get an informed view of female behavior, what motivates it and how consistent it is from crime to crime. We're denied any opportunity to compare a false rape crime with all its predecessors.
I don't think this aspect of false rape accusation lenience has slipped by prosecutors unnoticed, and so I can't believe this unnatural void of information for what is a common enough crime to be accidental
again -
http://westvirginianews.blogspot.com/2009/09/fake-rape-is-booming-new-money-maker.html
Fake Rape Is Booming New Money Maker
False Rape Accusers Earning Big Bucks And Book Deals
by, Jack Swint WestVirginiaNews@gmail.com
.
The crime of "bearing false witness" is rarely tracked or punished, and the context in which it is usually raised is highly politicized...
.
Over the past decade false accusations of rape have drastically increased. And, these new cases are not just targeted at the rich and famous like NBA star Kobe Bryant, who are sometimes easy marks for quick payoffs to avoid public scandals and or civil suits. There is also money to be made by any accuser, of every ethnic background, who can get into the mainstream media with their false allegations. Even after the charges against the men are found to be concocted.
.
Now, we are seeing a new pattern of making big bucks through back door deals ranging from personal appearances on shows like Oprah, book deals and donations and other monetary gains to the alleged victims family from sympathizers and well wishers.
MGTOW is not the only strategy that men are coming up with to deal with a legal system which is out of control and biased against them. There have been numerous comments in all the coverage about this case that one of the strange lessons to come out of it is for men to video all their encounters.
Here is an interesting take from a member of what is sometimes called "the seduction community" -
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/film-your-bangs/
obbop said...
I truly believe that the majority of females will be better off in a society where the Females as Property Movement exerts itself.
While I appreciate your wry dry humor, I have to go along with Pierce on this one and say that statements like this are over the top. Most people will stop listening to anything you say after that. Even men who are quite alienated from women have no desire at all to "own" one.
"Females as property" is just as loony as "rape culture." It distorts the dialogue allowing extremists at the fringes to alienate the middle, which is where most people really are.
Some of the rest of your points are pretty good. If you really would like people to take them seriously, I would suggest you drop the silly rhetoric and concentrate on the points which will resonate with the majority of men and those few women capable of having empathy for men's position.
@Anon0800,
Thanks for that URL!!! I visited it; I read the post; finally, I read the comments, and I found GOLD in them thar' hills! Thanks to one of the commenters, Roissy Mother, we now know what Danmell Nondye looks like!!! Repeat: we now know what Danmell Ndonye looks like!!
How so? Roissy Mother posted a link to Ndonye's MySpace page. That MySpace page has a photo of Ndoney-yes! Better yet, I saved a copy of the pic, and I just posted it on my blog! Now, whenever someone inputs the name, Danmell Ndonye, into a search engine, my blog post and pic of her will come up. Thanks Roissy and Roissy Mother!! Have a good day now...
MarkyMark
"And that's why (or at least part of the reason) you have miserably failed in your relationships with women in general."
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
Threat of Withheld Affection (Code Pink) – The Pink Whip
Discussion: The target is admonished that his viewpoints or behavior will cause women to reject him as a mate. Examples:
“No woman will marry you with that attitude.”
“Creeps like you will never get laid!”
Response: This is an example of the logical fallacy “argumentum ad baculum” (the “appeal to force”). The accuser attempts to negate the validity of a position by pointing to some undesirable circumstance that will befall anyone who takes said position. Really, the only way to deal with the “Pink Whip” is to realize that a man’s happiness and worth is not based on his romantic conquests (including marriage).
It's like arguing with a Chatty Cathy doll - one lame cliche after another. When will these brain-dead bimbos ever come up with something new?
Now it seems when I discuss anything with a MRA I have to listen to inane whining about shaming language
This illustrates an interesting adaptation to the tactics. One must keep in mind that they are ever evolving in their sophistication and subtlety, but those are only surface changes - the substance remains the same.
This is why I have suggested renaming them to "Personal Attacks and Mind Games Used to Prevent Real Discussion."
The mechanism in all cases is divert attention away from what the person is saying by a personal attack on them which puts them in a defensive posture and tries to force them to justify what they are saying. It is so widely used because it has been so effective.
In all cases, the counter is to not legitimize the attack by trying to argue against it, but simply to point out what the person is doing, and continue on making the original point.
http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/
Charge of Hypersensitivity (Code Blue) – The Crybaby Charge
Discussion: The target is accused of being hysterical or exaggerating the problems of men (i.e., he is accused of playing “Chicken Little”). Examples:
“Stop whining!”
“Get over it!”
“Suck it up like a man!”
“You guys don’t have it as nearly as bad as us women!”
“You’re just afraid of losing your male privileges.”
“Your fragile male ego …”
“Wow! You guys need to get a grip!”
Response: One who uses the Code Blue shaming tactic reveals a callous indifference to the humanity of men. It may be constructive to confront such an accuser and ask if a certain problem men face needs to be addressed or not (”yes” or “no”), however small it may be seem to be. If the accuser answers in the negative, it may constructive to ask why any man should care about the accuser’s welfare since the favor will obviously not be returned. If the accuser claims to be unable to do anything about the said problem, one can ask the accuser why an attack is necessary against those who are doing something about it.
When is it sex and when is it rape?
Whenever she says so.
Pierce Harlan said...
Anon at 4:53, I have no intention of banning comments like yours. I don't agree with it, not because I don't think it makes good points, but because I think it overstates the problem, it simplifies a very complex set of circumstances and misses all sorts of nuance.
Like this comment: "Feminism has poisoned women's minds against men, and rendered most of the previous reasons and motivations for becoming involved with them impossible in todays climate of gender war."
Wow! I think if I believed that, I'd kill myself.
Well, sex isn't nearly important enough to me to "kill myself" over.
What "nuance" am I missing in the situation where a woman I have invested a year in getting to know, and her to get to know me, am I "missing" when one old copy of a Playboy magazine lying around leads her to be "so afraid" that I might be "a serial killer, or child molester, or serial rapist"?
Is that not a perfect example of a woman's mind having been "poisoned against men, rendering most of the previous reasons and motivations for becoming involved with them impossible."
Would you find it possible, and desirable enough to motivate you to seek it, to get the kind of emotional intimacy you seek in a relationship with a woman who is afraid of you and harbors suspicions that you might be one of the vilest sort of criminals?
And, if you tell me how "rare" this sort of thing is, that sounds a lot like the women who claim that false accusations are so "rare."
It doesn't matter how "rare" something is, if you are the one it happens to.
The point to be made here is that making women afraid of men, and putting in their minds all sorts of horrible suspicions and fears about them, harms women and men equally. Prior to that I had spent years cycling in and out of the dating nightmare, with each hiatus growing slightly longer than the last.
After having been "accused" of something I probably could have beaten the crap out of a man for saying about me and not been punished all that severely by any court, I gave myself permission to not have to put myself through it any more.
I don't expect any woman to understand that, but I would expect that at least some men might understand why it has reached the point where putting up with that sort of crap is simply no longer worth it to some men.
This illustrates an interesting adaptation to the tactics. One must keep in mind that they are ever evolving in their sophistication and subtlety, but those are only surface changes - the substance remains the same.
This is why I have suggested renaming them to "Personal Attacks and Mind Games Used to Prevent Real Discussion."
Sorry but as a male who has not become completely bitter about the whole female species bc of their idiocy I see you guys use this whole "shaming language" garbage and it just makes me shake my head and chuckle. Oh wait I said I'm not bitter so I'm inferring that you are so I am using shaming language against you Oh No!!.
In all seriousness, like it has been stated earlier this tactic is just like a feminist tactic to try and silence anybody who might want to point out some tunnel vision that might be occurring. Anything negative that is pointed out seems to be given a label so you can ignore the criticism and say well this is just..... so you don't have to think about it or listen to it.
The tactic IS a page out of feminism and can be seen just in this discussion alone. Earlier, people including the guy who runs the blog, have stated that some of the comments are a little overboard. Some responses were to bring up the whole diatribe about shaming language that some supposedly used, and to add other diatribes of generalizations that weren't even dealing with the specific topic brought up. Sorry but this is what dumb women do to try and avoid the actual topic or criticism brought up. If you want to be taken seriously you need to evaluate this behavior as well as spouting ideas about females returning to being property and such because that forces these discussions to not be taken seriously by intelligent people who you want to sway to look into this serious problem.
Before anyone wants to twist this into me being anti male or pro feminist with your tactics I'll share my experience. I have known many legit rape victims, I have seen many false rape accusations firsthand and how the males were guilty w/evidence of the contrary. I have been accused of hitting a girl who in fact attacked me while all I did was deflect the unending would be blows and seen how people assume and believe I punched her as even females who were witnesses claimed I punched her bc that's what she decided to claim afterwords. I have seen female nature at is worst as I am what you would call an "Alpha". I have watched women cheat on their boyfriends and husbands and lie without a thought, I have learned at an early age that most women have no self esteem and the more you dominate and shame them the more they respect you in general so for any I deemed not worthy I have always made them pay for outings and buy me things. I have played games with friends where we go out and one of us will be the "nice guy" and one will be as insulting as possible and watch the women flock and throw themselves at the "bad boy".
I know women, I have little respect for most of them but at the same time, even I am turned off by some of the outlandish and delusional things I see here. My point is not to talk smack, my point is to let you see this so you can be more effective in getting more people to see the reality of the misandry. Take it how you want.
What is the difference between sex and rape?
Nothing. It's her call.
I am what you would call an "Alpha".
EIGHTEEN INCHES, YOU SAY??!?!?!!!
Wow!
THE GAME OF HETEROSEXUAL CHESS
The MAN'S side:
a King, a Queen, 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, 2 Knights and 8 pawns
The WOMAN'S side:
a Victim, a King, a Queen, 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, 2 Knights and 8 pawns
The woman gets an extra game piece to play. The Victim is the most powerful game piece on the board.
Who always wins? You figure it out.
Instead of "checkmate!" it's "cryrape!"
Does 'MGTOW' stand for 'Men Going Their Own Way'? It seems like I heard that somewhere but am not sure. If not, what does it stand for?
Anon,
the man's king is a perpetrator, isn't he? Or at least he represents the patriarchy.
Does 'MGTOW' stand for 'Men Going Their Own Way'?
Yes.
"This is consistent with other false gang-rape accusations. All men are accused in order to destroy their credibility and testimony."
This is the hallmark of the false accuser. As soon as she decides to falsely accuse, she must implicate everyone who may have been a witness. She can't afford to leave out a single person who could nay-say her.
For the genuine stranger rape victim in a public place, there's a likelihood of witnesses who can give reliable accounts of what happened, and the victim herself may be able to identify several uncompromised people who could verify what happened.
The likelihood that these 5 boys had sex with Ndonye, one after the other (an image which the media makes no effort to dispel) is not high. There are much more likely scenarios than this, but why anyone would choose to believe all 5 boys joined in is probably related to the same reason so many were ready to believe a rape occurred.
@ 7:09
How do you define a "genuine stranger rape victim"?
What you are saying indicates that unless a woman is raped by a "stranger" she is not a "genuine victim".
I'm sure you didn't really mean to impart that impression.
Anon at 7:09: Good points. What is astounding is how the police and news media automatically accepted the "fact" that every young man in that room was a rapist. Does anyone even care to venture a guess how unlikely such a scenario really was -- and yet the bought into with nary a question. Add five more false rape claims to the epidemic.
okay, pierce, assuming the 5 guys are innocent, what were the circumstances? How did the girl wind up on a cold grubby tile floor in the men's restroom?
Atom, go read the fucking news accounts -- we've posted about 30 of them on this site. Stop being a fucking jackass.
Pierce Harlan
How would nitwits like Atom like it if we started analyzing cases where there is no reasonable doubt that a rape occurred as if it was a false claim? We wouldn't do that because by any measure it would be wrong. There is no question that Atom is a misandrist and I will confer with Steve as to whether she should be banned.
Pierce Harlan
Atom, you moron: read the "troubled" woman's sworn confession.
If you want to BAN me for asking questions about the Hofstra incident, then you must feel terribly threatened.
So before you BAN me, tell me HOW she wound up on the floor of the mens' restroom. If what I hear is true (chasing her cell phone), what ELSE went on that WE don't know about?
Atom, she wound up on the floor of the mens rooms...because she is a sexually liberated raunch girl that wants to f**k a group of guys.
Why can't you eunuchs understand this.
"If you want to BAN me for asking questions about the Hofstra incident, then you must feel terribly threatened."
Atom, the trouble with having you here is that you sidetrack the discussion from real issues. You know you do it. You do it intentionally. I suspect you "write" for one of the feminist blogs. You highjack my posts with your hatred. I don't have time to try to convince someone so filled with rage toward an entire gender that she is wrong. Sorry. You have serious problems with men, and for your own sake, you should get some counseling.
I agree with Anon at 9:19 and retract my earlier statement where I suggested you should reread all the news accounts about Hofstra: don't bother with all the news accounts, just read her sworn statement. Under law, the sworn statement is conclusive. The young woman falsely accused five men of rape. Period. That is no longer open to debate. That's not MY opinion; it's not some wild MRA opinion. It is a conclusive fact as a matter of law. Why she chose to have a quicky in a restroom is her business. And the police and D.A. who were so quick to believe her did a 180.
Now go back to your feminist site and stop kicking us in the balls.
Eunechs, or "useful idiots" are these guys that march in the womens parades for womens.. financial / emotional/ sexual/liberations...But at the same time, these same guys can't get it through their deviant little brains.. that some girls are gonna act on these new sexual liberations..AND FUCK THE WHOLE BASEBALL TEAM!!
"...assuming the 5 guys are innocent, what were the circumstances? How did the girl wind up on a cold grubby tile floor in the men's restroom?"
This is the face of covert, insidious and evil misandry.
1) Constant attempts at deflection.
2) 'Assuming the 5 guys are innocent', when their innocence is known by all - including this commenter.
3) 'cold grubby tile floor': an attempt to paint an image in our minds of what actually happened, when she has no idea. No-one knows apart from those very few involved. Had a criminal charge been laid against Ndonye, we may all have learned, but thanks to DA Rice, that we will never know. Speculation about the extent to which all of the 5 accused were involved remains shrouded in secrecy and open for malicious rumor-mongering such as atom is engaging in right now.
What you are doing is foul woman. You have no idea what happened, you know none of it was illegal, you know Ndonye lied, and still you try to cast a pall of suspicion over 5 men you've never met under the guise of 'asking questions'.
You say we must feel threatened. In this you are right. When such naked evil prowls so close, a shiver of horror runs up my spine.
There is no question that Atom is a misandrist and I will confer with Steve as to whether she should be banned.
What good would banning her do? Someone else would just take her place. It seems like just about every blog or board I see has a couple of resident saboteurs who manage to keep the entire board sort of pinned down by constantly posting irrelevancies and twisting what everyone says into a chance to spout femnitwit dogma. If you ban her, Jeana or Renee would just slide right in and take over her role.
I think there are a couple of good reasons to let it stay. First, practice dealing with her ilk will come on handy the next time anyone runs across someone like her. Second, she is a great showcase for how pervasive misandry is and how much glee misandrists take in hating men and spreading poisonous lies about them. Third, charges, or even the appearance, of silencing dissenting voices can always be shouted about as a means of discrediting the entire effort - "see, they only want an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them." We say it all the time about feminist boards and believe it lowers their credibility. She is annoying, but I don't see her as disruptive because how inane she is actually weakens the case she is trying to make - to anyone with half a brain, at least.
Fourth, how would you actually accomplish banning her, anyway. You don't require registration and allow anonymous posting, so unless you greatly restrict everyone else you can't really get rid of her. It's kind of like restricting everyone in the name of "fighting terrorists."
Fifth she makes such fun target practice. ;)
You say we must feel threatened. In this you are right. When such naked evil prowls so close, a shiver of horror runs up my spine.
There is value in developing the skills to confront the evil and not give it the power to disrupt your serenity.
I think she provides an important case study. If anyone ever wonders how and why these insane laws got enacted - she is exhibit A.
She is a living example of the "Big Lie" - tell the big lie, and keep telling it, and attacking anyone who contradicts it, and eventually you can just wear people down and make them capitulate due to weariness and a desire to avoid the evil.
But, that is how the femnitwits have won. Unless and until we find ways to counter and defeat this strategy, they will keep winning.
There will always be women like her. Classical mythology is full of archetypes that tell us women like this have been around since the dawn of the human race - the Gorgons, the Harpies.
We really can gaze on her face and not turn to stone. And, perhaps, if enough people look at her long enough, this intractable mythology of "innate female goodness" might eventually give way to a more realistic assessment which includes the fact that women have the capability of being ever bit as evil as the most evil of men.
Anon at 10:29: Moderation doesn't seem to hurt the feminist sites. They generally don't allow open discourse -- I suppose their empowered sensibilities can't take it. But I jest. I agree with what you've said. I do hate when one of them highjacks a post that we know is important.
Anon at 10:39: I don't need the practice dealing with inane opposing positions. I've spent the past 25 years doing that for a living.
Only rational positions should be responded to. The irrational ones speak for themselves. Unfortunately our trolls get people so inflamed that we get 50 posts just expressing outrage about them.
If what I hear is true (chasing her cell phone), what ELSE went on that WE don't know about?
Yup, they're right, you are a complete and total moron.
What part of "it was all a LIE" do you not understand?
It's a rhetorical question - your entire existence is a lie, a lie is what are.
Behold the face of feminism, gentlemen, and vomit.
Only rational positions should be responded to. The irrational ones speak for themselves. Unfortunately our trolls get people so inflamed that we get 50 posts just expressing outrage about them.
That't the point, it is them who needs the pratice, not you.
This thing got to be such a mess because women just wore men down. The only way men will ever turn the tide is learn their tactics and become better at them. The feminists will keep pushing until men stop them. Men have been running away from them for years - that is why they have gained as much ground as they have gained.
I think she makes a great dog to kick and let guys take out their frustrations. There no need to treat a sub-human slug like her with any shred of regard.
"I think she makes a great dog to kick and let guys take out their frustrations. There no need to treat a sub-human slug like her with any shred of regard."
Good point. These trolls also do a good job of letting us know what they don't want us to know. When they comment, it's usually because someone said something that hit home a few comments up.
"she is a sexually liberated raunch girl that wants to f**k a group of guys"
NO...she is empowered.
"I'm sure you didn't really mean to impart that impression."
Then why did you infer it as such?
It's still annoying how these trolls come in here with a neon sign plastered to their forehead and expect us to pay attention to them. This is a serious blog dealing with a serious issue, not Attention-getters Anonymous.
It's still annoying how these trolls come in here with a neon sign plastered to their forehead and expect us to pay attention to them. This is a serious blog dealing with a serious issue, not Attention-getters Anonymous.
True. But, off the blog and out in the real world of polics where change has to occur, you will have to deal with the same trolls, who have the same mentality, and use the same tactics. The mistaken beliefs that the other side is sincere, acting in good faith, and as serious about the issues as we are is what has allowed them to make such unbelievable progress in stripping away our rights.
Learning how to defuse and defeat their tactics is an essential step in the process of getting something substantive done about the problem. Doing that here here where the blog owners have control and are not sympathetic to their side is good practice.
Atom - "did Watson (or anyone) explain how the girl wound up down in the men's basement? I mean besides being in hot pursuit of her cell phone."
If you go back ad read through some of the details that are leaking out, you will find that you have made several assertion (going back over several posts) not supported by the new information:
A) The consequential sex occurred at a residence hall - NOT a frat house.
B) Her original story was that she followed them to retrieve her phone. But, that was her quickly concocted rational for why she went to the men's restroom. There IS NO indication that her cell phone was actually taken from her at all. It seams that SHE had the "hots" for one of the men, and invited HIM for a restroom hook-up, and suggested he bring friends. Neither account has been verified, but it is no more likely that her phone was taken than is is that she did the inviting.
C) What leads you to believe she ever went to a basement - all accounts place the incident in a restroom?
D) There is no evidence that the consensual sex took place with her lying on the floor.
Now, you can keep demanding answers to things which probably did not occur, but there is no reason that anyone needs to answer your bogus questions. The things you question, even supposing that they may have actually happened, still fail to excuse her lying and her false rape reporting. Thus, they are trivial non-issues.
That you continue to try to bring them up clearly demonstrates that you are unwilling/unable to engage others regarding either the know facts, nor the "larger-picture" issue.
An example of debating YOU on your preferred terms would be to demand to know why she would have a multiple partner hook-up in a restroom unless she'd done it frequently before. Like your questions, it goes not to substantive matters, but only to speculation.
True. But, off the blog and out in the real world of polics where change has to occur, you will have to deal with the same trolls, who have the same mentality, and use the same tactics.
* * *
I don't agree. You don't "defeat" a troll, since all they want is attention, and you can't ignore them forever.
We don't gain anything by arguing with stupid people, but by reaching out to those with common goals. Only intelligent trolls can provide useful sparring partners, and we only need one or two for that purpose.
We don't gain anything by arguing with stupid people, but by reaching out to those with common goals. Only intelligent trolls can provide useful sparring partners, and we only need one or two for that purpose.
If intelligent people were running the show, we would not be in the situation we are in. Stupid people brought this about by pulling the wool over the eyes of sincere people. The best way to convince sincere people that they have been hoodwinked is to keep shoving the stupidity of the stupid people in their faces until they reach the conclusion - "Hey, it would be pretty stupid of me to continue to believe them or to believe that they have anything other than malicious intent.
Anon - "Only intelligent trolls can provide useful sparring partners, and we only need one or two for that purpose."
In that regard, Renee has at times, brought up useful points that challenge us to think a bit more deeply about issues. The other two...? Well, not so much.
How can answering pointless questions as to events that we cannot be certain even occurred help us at all. For instance, there is ZERO evidence that Danmel Ndonye was ever on the floor in the restroom (it being quite easy to engage in sex with lying on the floor), nor is there evidence that her phone was ever actually taken from her (she was making up her account on-the-fly, and needed to explain why she would have entered the men's restroom other than for the consensual sex we ALL now know occurred, so that she was trying to retrieve her phone would have been a plausible lie. We know she had her phone with her during the sexual encounter, because she verbalized that she did not intend to answer it).
Given that one of the trolls is demanding answers as to these two non-issues, there is nothing to be gained. She is merely trying to lead the discussion astray, and away from more important themes.
Given that one of the trolls is demanding answers as to these two non-issues, there is nothing to be gained. She is merely trying to lead the discussion astray, and away from more important themes.
Which is precisely how the legal climate we are discussing got established in the first place. The political arena where change is likely to occur will be filled with people like her, and will not have the option to "make them go away."
Exposing their hypocrisy and malicious intent to decision-makers is the only way to discredit them. Suppressing them will not work outside small internet venues. In order to undo the damage they have done, their credibility must be attacked and destroyed in the area of public opinion.
There is no reason for them to be here. We can expose them without being subjected to them.
.There is no reason for them to be here. We can expose them without being subjected to them.
This makes it sound like dealing with a troll is an awful experience to be avoided. We need to harden up and learn to laugh in their faces. Invite them to 'bring it on'.
The only people who can reasonably expect to be sheltered from these unpleasant people are the family and loved ones of the victims.
The rest of us have to slay the dragon, and that requires us know everything we can know about their tactics and what are effective responses. It also gives good example to onlookers who know there's a problem, but don't quite know how it came about, what form it takes, and what to do about it.
Another commenter who said the real-world is full of these people is right. None of us can expect to have the heart and fluency to take them on, or the philosophical certainty that we must, unless we've had some training in advance.
To anyone who finds the feminazi bitch trolls a PITA, then IGNORE THEM! They're attention whores! They don't care if it's good or bad attention; they just want attention. Starve them, and they will leave...
Anonymous at Sep 27, 2009 12:03:00 PM:
No, most females do NOT like being treated like crap. It’s just that so many guys treat females like crap that females become used to it and don’t expect anything better. So then you people think that’s what we like. No, it’s what is out there. Lots o’ scum. And if a guy wanted to be with me, he always paid.
Norm said...
"she is a sexually liberated raunch girl that wants to f**k a group of guys"
NO...she is empowered.
“Empowered” like a guy, right? How absolutely, pathetically sad. Why would any female aspire to act like a trashy guy? Or really, GUYS. Gross.
Then why do you spend every waking moment on a blog full of "lots o' scum?" Could it be that would want the "lots o' scum" to pay attention to you?
jeana said...
And if a guy wanted to be with me, he always paid.
There is a word for that. And, we know that women hate being called it, because it is true.
jeana,
what are you talking about?
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