A longer-than-usual post for an important subject. More than any single event since Duke lacrosse, the Hofstra false rape case has underscored a disturbing absence of concern for victims of false rape claims by those who dominate the public discourse about rape, radical feminists and their closely allied paid sexual assault counselors. Together, they make up what can aptly be called the sexual grievance industry. They have twisted and pounded the plain facts of the Hofstra incident to extract lessons from it that are diametrically opposed to the actual lesson Hofstra teaches. Their screeds are written for like-minded zealots and are lacking in either compassion for an entire gender or common sense.
The facts
We all know the story: four young men were arrested in a classic rush to judgment based on the word of a lone accuser despite the young men's sincere denials. The police appeared to side with the accuser. Bail was set at astronomically high levels to insure they would remain jailed. And it is no surprise to learn how they were treated in jail: "Publicly branded as rapists, the men said they were hounded as the lowest type of criminal in prison and feared for their lives. 'They were harassing me more than anybody else, just because of what I was in there for,' [one of the men said]. '[The guards] were badgering me. They would push me and shove me. I thought I was dreaming. The worst part was hearing that I could do 25 years. I'm not even 25 years old. I'm just 19.'" The mainstream news media chimed in to make sure everyone believed that a rape had actually occurred despite the flimsy evidence. Reporters came on television and described the alleged attack with a solemnity and a gravitas usually reserved for the death of a president.
The District Attorney's office refused to charge the false accuser immediately. "[Kathleen] Rice's spokesman Eric Phillips said the district attorney 'doesn't make snap judgments or let political expedience replace diligent fact-finding in investigations . . . . '" (Oh, you mean the same way you conducted "diligent fact-finding" and refused to make a "snap judgment" in arresting four young men on the say-so of a lone female, without examining all the evidence and without waiting to see the video, right?) Some said Danmell Ndonye shouldn't be charged at all. "Lois Schwaeber, director of legal services for the Nassau County Coalition Against Domestic Violence, said cases where people make false reports of rape hurt all legitimate rape victims seeking justice. But she said prosecuting someone who has made a false report will discourage real rape victims from coming forward as well." Gynocetrism, and it's indifference to the plight of males, is a hallmark of radical feminism. Ms. Schwaeber did not explain, of course, why it is somehow appropriate to elevate the victimization of one group of citizens (rape victims) over that of another (false rape victims). It gets worse: the Distric Attorney's office refused even to release Ndonye's name, because "her actions and her demeanor depict a very troubled young woman in need of much help." Imagine, if you will, a district attorney saying the same thing about an accused rapist. She would be run out of office. The New York Times didn't publish her name, either, but what should we expect from a paper that has yet to name Crystal Gail Mangum?
The reaction
The anti-male vitriol was sadly predictable. Consider a writer named Deborrah Cooper. Ms. Cooper presumably read the same news accounts that the rest of us read but has transmogrified them into a dark and twisted feminist fairy tale that fits radical feminism's victim metanarrative. Hers may be the single most misandric piece of writing I've come across in a long time. She concludes that Danmell Ndonye -- the criminal, the false rape accuser -- was the one who was "victimized" at a rape "party." Ms. Cooper weaves a fantastic nightmare of abduction, assault, and rape perpetrated against Ndonye that reads like a feminist "Pulp Fiction" in its utter depravity and violence. It is replete with Ndonye pleading while the vile men laugh at her and congratulate each other for their score. Ms. Cooper concludes that the "boys" (I can't imagine Ms. Cooper would think it appropriate to call the false accuser a "girl") are "sick," and that anyone who believes Ndonye consented to sex must be "real simple minded." Yeah, that's what Ms. Cooper said, "real simple minded." With no evidence beyond her serene ipse dixit and a fantastically large anti-male chip on her shoulder, Ms. Cooper knows that the young woman said "Stop it!," "I want to leave!" "Get off me!" and "Help!"
Ms. Cooper's language is a case study in misandry: "Like rutting animals one after the other - posing her, plunging in and out of her like beasts, using her body for their sexual satisfaction while others cheer him on and await their turn. What happened in that bathroom was not sex – it is sexual perversity and objectification of women." Ms. Cooper regales the reader with made-up facts about how even though the angelic "victim" was humiliated and frightened, she acceded to the men's horrid desires simply to save her life. "I guess we should be happy that these five aren't murderers," she opines, presumably with a straight face. The "victim" couldn't have consented, Ms. Cooper concludes, because "the victim is in a nasty men's bathroom smelling of urine, and on a cold tile floor." (Because, you know how men pee all over the floor and everything, just to be vile.) How does Ms. Cooper know what really happened? Because "[a]s an advice columnist for the past 20 years, I have a handle on how men think, the rage men have towards women that deny them, and the fears and vulnerability young women have." You see, it is not enough that men must never question a woman's "experience," men must also never question women who claim they know men's experience.
Oh, the young man who made the video -- you know, the video that prevented the falsely accused from serving 25 years in prison for a crime they didn't commit -- he "is the most twisted" one of all, according to Ms. Cooper. She doesn't stop there, she unloads a sort of feminist-diarrhea-of-the-keyboard about how "[m]ore and more men seem to feel entitled to women's bodies" and about sexual "comments and gestures." On and on she blathers, one twisted assertion cascades atop the next until they collapse upon one another to form a Rorschach inkblot of unmistakable misandry. It is not shocking that someone could be consumed by such fanatical hatred because, after all, the world is full of loons. What is shocking is that her words are published somewhere, anywhere.
And she's not alone. A Women's Studies major at George Washington University named Juliette Dallas-Feeney used the false rape claim at Hofstra to raise awareness about an entirely different crime, rape. She writes in the GW Hatchet: "The incident at Hofstra is a wake-up call for GW and all universities to answer the problem of rape on campus." And an arson is a wake-up call to raise awareness about burglary, right, Ms. Dallas-Feeney? Either Ms. Dallas-Feeney doesn't understand that she has posited a non sequitur or she lacks the intellectual honesty to give a damn. "Whatever [the young woman's] reasons [for recanting], it's doubtful we'll ever know her true intentions because these situations are all purely speculative." (Funny, later on her piece, Ms. Dallas-Feeney cites stats about the alleged prevalence of rape and doesn't bother to mention that those stats, by necessity, must be "purely speculative," too. But I guess that's somehow different? We can't possibly ever know that a rape claim is really false, but of course we can assume that virtually all rape claims were actual rapes, right, Ms. Dallas-Feeney?)
And it doesn't stop there. Amateur pundits on feminist blogs were atwitter with their usual attempts to minimize the prevalence of false rape claims in the face of overwhelming evidence that false rape claims are very common. Some openly ridiculed the concern shown for the falsely accused by asking why we assume their good names have been forever tarnished. The answer, sadly, is evident in articles written by people like Deborrah Cooper and Juliette Dallas-Feeney, who insist that what happened either was rape or that no one will ever really know what happened because it's "all purely speculative." So the young men are branded forever as either rapists or potential rapists, yet the feminists don't understand why that's a problem.
The radical feminists had their usual help from chivalrous men, radical feminism's useful idiots. A writer named Michael Daly entered the misandry hall of fame with this gem: "The five were freed after getting the good scare that they well deserved."
The lesson
In the end, Ndonye was treated by many as the "victim" and the five young men were treated as depraved sexual predators. The entire sordid affair was being talked about as yet another example of "rape culture," a way of life where males objectify and victimize females for their own personal gratification. She might have legally consented, but it was not really consent. No woman would really consent to engage in such depravity. Now, men . . . that's an entirely different story, of course, because men are vile, depraved, and beyond redemption.
Lost on too many is the undeniable fact that it appears a vicious crime was committed against five innocent young men. Period. Since the encounter appears to have been consensual, it was not rape, nor was it some sort of "rape lite." Yes, it was a wild, and unfortunate consensual hook-up, probably far more common than many of us would like to think. But this has nothing to do with criminality. As Cathy Young explained, the conduct of the young men wasn't "attractive behavior, to be sure. Yet we always have been told that rape victims don't need to be angels or models of chastity to deserve support. Surely the same should apply to men who are falsely accused." When the shoe is on the other foot, feminists cry "victim blaming" any time someone brands rape victims' conduct as lacking in morality. Somehow the same doesn't apply to false rape victims.
The fact is, if the "boys'" sexual escapades were troublesome, so was the "girl's," and, if it weren't for her lie about what happened in that rest room, what they did together would have been a private matter -- a matter that wouldn't concern the police, the courts, the news media, the feminist pundits, the chivalrous males, or any of us. She is a free moral agent, not a meek and powerless angelic being in dire need of society's protection from vile male predators who like to force women to have sex on urine-soaked tile floors. For more than forty years, feminists have insisted that women are at least as smart and as capable as men and more than able to make their own decisions, thank you very much. When feminists turn around and insist that, when it comes to sex, women are, in fact, utterly powerless, they set their own cause back by decades just to achieve an expedient victory in a sort of twisted Oppression Olympics.
All of the hand-wringing that insists Danmell Ndonye is a victim who could not possibly have consented, and that the men are evil sex predators, accomplishes the seemingly impossible task of insulting two genders at one time. First, it is insults women because it is sexist in the extreme, implying that they are either too stupid or too weak to act as free moral agents capable of making even fantastically dumb choices when it comes to sex, and that they need an unholy alliance of radical feminists and chivalrous guardian angel males to protect them from the male evildoers.
Second, it insults men because it suggests that when men and women engage in consensual, albeit fantastically stupid sex, the men must be the predators, the women must be innocent victims, and that later, when the women try to destroy the mens' lives by crying "rape," the women shouldn't be charged but the men will get the "good scare" they well deserve.
The misandry at work here is breathtaking. The lesson of Hofstra is that we live not in a rape culture, but in a false rape culture. It is a culture where it is far more important to protect our daughters than our sons, so even far-fetched allegations of rape, even the possibility of rape, is not endured for one moment, but false rape claims that destroy our sons are not merely tolerated, they are tacitly encouraged. It is a culture where we allow the persons who dominate the public discourse about rape to tell lies about our daughters by pretending they are powerless, angelic creatures, and about sons by pretending they are demonic, lying predators. Hofstra merely underscored that any culture that insists women can be "empowered" by telling lies will never achieve true gender equality. Sadly, the persons who supposedly are the most concerned about gender equality are just fine with that, thank you very much.
Friday, September 25, 2009
The real lesson of Hofstra: We can't empower our daughters by pretending they are powerless
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64 comments:
Great post.
I have to wonder, however, when or if we will ever become ready to take the next step and begin to address the fact that these conditions are not the result of some simply misguided and ignorant people, but indicative of active and focussed malice.
I had this in my (now dismissed) rape allegations.
The "young lady" in question dealt all day every day (professionally) with lawyers and other professionals, she had a management degree which includes a social science module, she had done 18 months kick boxing with a tutor who was in the top three in the country, etc etc etc.
Nevertheless, the (female) interrogating police officers' stance was that this was some weak and feeble little girl who was dominated and controlled by the svangali sexual predator that was me.
This is NOT an exceptional tale folk, this is SOP for these kinds of criminal investigations.
I get caught out in even one lie, I'm off to prison.
My accusers commit at least three instances of incontestable perjury, and the police do not want to know about that.
AfOR
Anon at 10:12: I wholeheartedly agree. Any group that would malign an entire gender, and make up stats out of whole cloth to support their lies, is not just misguided, it must be considered evil.
A lot of young women who become followers of this movement soon gravitate away because, when they start dating and interacting with men, they realize it doesn't ring true. I would call them misguided. But the leaders -- the sexual assault counselors, the intellectual firepower of the group, feminist "scholars" -- they have much to answer for.
"Ms. Cooper knows that the young woman said "Stop it!," "I want to leave!" "Get off me!" and "Help!"
Wait? Wasn't the word most frequently heard from Danmell Ndonye, "Next"?
/snark
How long must we be made to endure this wholly ridiculous notion that "No young woman in her right mind would have consented to this?"?
Anybody who's paying even the least bit of attention to today's feminist-raunch culture would know that to be able to have sex with multiple random partners is a raunch-feminists dream. (I was repeatedly asked to explain what was "wrong" with a woman having sex with five strange men in a restroom by Amanda Hess's readers - they insisted that it should be considered "normal", and not judge in any negative light).
Don't the various feminist factions read one another's stuff? On the one hand, we have the raunch-culture feminists demanding that society stop making women feel guilty for "whatever" they do in the name of sexual liberation, while on the other hand another bunch of feminists continue to insist that no women would be doing the same things the the raunch-culture feminists actively celebrate. Major disconnect!
And, once again (because I don't believe that it can be over-stated), women lie about being raped NOT because society (and some imagined patriarchal "rape-culture") makes them feel ashamed of themselves; but rather because the women simply do not want to deal with the (localized - amongst friends, partners, and family) consequences of the decisions they've made.
It could be like Danmell Ndonye not wanting to have to admit to her boyfriend that she had cheated on him (even though he indicates that he was already fairly certain that she had), even at the cost of the five young men (including the "hot one" she spotted at the party and pursued for sex - inviting his friends along); or the woman in NJ who lied about being raped by the now imprisoned man who didn't even have sex with her because her friends were mad at her.
Women simply DO NOT CARE about men being hurt by their lies. They will gladly continue their lies all the way to seeing a man put in prison rather than admit their lies to those around them.
The woman in NJ testified in court against the innocent man who'd given her a ride long after her friend anger had ebbed, and there was absolutely no other reason to continue on other than her reputation with those friends.
Year in prison for a man vs having to admit to friends, partners, and/or families that a woman had lied to cover her own tracks - that IS what women calculate to be a reasonable trade-off.
And the idiots who continue to champion their non-existent "virtues" feel every bit the same way.
Every morning:
Love Thyself
Respect Thyself
Protect Thyself
Don't leave home without it.
Women simply DO NOT CARE about men being hurt by their lies.
Some day, hopefully, this cultural denial which insists that every woman is "wonderful, caring, nurturing" simply by virtue of having been born with a vagina, will crumble.
The above statement can be simplified to -
Women simply DO NOT CARE about men period.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/121/262973739_3faa474539.jpg
AfOR
AfOR-congratulations on your charges being dismissed! I hope you get some kind of justice in clearing your name and getting your life back, including all you have lost.
((HUGS))
CBGirl
And, speaking of empowering young women - how about giving their testimonies equal weight in court - BUT, nothing more?
What's this? Sanity in Sweden?
Supreme Court in landmark rape rulings
A reversal of a rape conviction in which: "When discussing the incident later, the girl admitted that she didn’t consider the incident to be a case of rape at the time."
Now, where is it we seen a woman consent at the time, and not come to realize it was "rape" until later when something else caused her to regret having had consensual sex?
How many such incidents have been cataloged on this site alone?
[Now, don't go off on me for snarking about the Swede's - I claim substantial Swedish heritage myself, and still know some of my family there - But, they are, never-the-less, a bit "loony" on most issues]
My comment left in response to Juliette Dallas-Feeny:
It's a shame that Ms. Dallas-Feeny doesn't realize what the crime in this situation was, and that she has completely minimized who the "victim's" were in this case.
The crime here, was a young woman who falsely accused 5 young men of rape. Just so everyone is clear, THERE WAS NO RAPE. So please explain to me, without being sexist, how this should be a reason to highlight rape? Shouldn't this be a reason to highlight false accusations?
As to the question as to why she falsely accused, what does it matter? Would you similarly want to know why someone raped? Doubtful. Regardless of the reasons she falsely accused (which by the way, was to cover up her sexual indiscretion with her boyfriend), she has committed a crime. She deserves to serve some jail time for it. And no, she didn't retract becasue of the stress and media frenzy, she retracted because of the video proof that it was consensual.
The lack of journalistic integrity in this piece is lamentable. I would assume that someone who is a 'columnist' would have a little bit better idea of what reasearch is.
Fyi, This is from the bottom of her piece:
The writer, a junior majoring in women's studies, is a Hatchet columnist.
Not really a surprise
Feminist care so much about the victims of false rape accusations.
In this article:
"The "victim" couldn't have consented, Ms. Cooper concludes, because "the victim is in a nasty men's bathroom smelling of urine, and on a cold tile floor." (Because, you know how men pee all over the floor and everything, just to be vile.)"
Not only do frat men pee all over the floor just to be vile, they also vomit all over the floor. And, yes, it's encouraged, just as the Pong game is encouraged. This scene and similar scenes usually occur in the basement of a frat. It's common knowledge ... it's not something I pulled out of the sky.
So, the statement you added in parentheses indicates that you have no idea what frat culture promotes and encourages.
Atom - "So, the statement you added in parentheses indicates that you have no idea what frat culture promotes and encourages."
Was there any point to your post - other than to point out that the author ISN'T a frat-boy?
So What? He isn't intimately aware of all that goes on in a frat house? Are you?
If they're SOooo bad, why do young women go there to party, get drunk, take drugs, and (yes) to engage in rampant sexuality?
Well, it's because woman have become every bit that raunchy themselves. Anyone can google/bing for pictures, video, and frank discussions about what goes on at college parties (be careful, it's definitely not safe for work (NSFW) material, i.e. women engaging in sex acts with men, women,and "objects" openly in front of onlookers of both genders). Geez! I see what people mean by "Raunch Culture", and the sexual libertine feminists who enthusiastically promote it.
Now, Atom, how does any of that NOT SUGGEST that there is plenty of wild, inappropriate yet consensual sex for young women to later regret - and claim as gang-rapes if confronted by boyfriends, friends, or family members?
Did you actually have something to add, either in support of eliminating false rape allegations, or even as an argument against their existence? Or where you simply looking to belittle the author based on his incomplete knowledge of modern frat-houses?
maybe the guy's do pee on the floors, just to be vile - but I'm seeing pictures of girls peeing in sinks, in bathtubs, and on the ground - all while smiling for the cameras. It obviously isn't just the guys.
It sounds like Deborrah Cooper is a schizophrenic. She suffers from the delusion that she was actually there at the scene, or that she is receiving 'messages' of what really happened there - maybe hearing voices from a spirit or something.
Atom constructs a 'frat culture' out of vomiting on floors, then somehow transmogrifies it into a 'rape culture' when the same guys have sex with women students.
It is almost like the 'opposite' of deconstruction.
You know, it seems to me that every day, men and boys are having their right to masculinity taken away from them. But guess what? The more you eliminate testosterone release in one area, such as, for example, making street drag racing a crime, the more it will find a release somewhere else...you know, like in real crime. Thus, people that endorse takinig these rights away are sociopaths.
you have no idea what frat culture promotes and encourages.
In my case, that is certainly true. I always found those were part of frat culture to be somewhat to extremely unpleasant to be around, so I generally avoided them. I never understood why some people with the opportunity to avoid such things instead seemed to actively seek them out. I could only assume that they either enjoyed it directly, or were so mentally broken that enjoyment of it was part of their illness.
Either way, my life was decidedly more pleasant as a result of my choices, which is what "empowerment" is all about to me - not the ability to destroy someone else.
Atom said...
Not only do frat men pee all over the floor just to be vile, they also vomit all over the floor. And, yes, it's encouraged, just as the Pong game is encouraged. This scene and similar scenes usually occur in the basement of a frat. It's common knowledge ... it's not something I pulled out of the sky.
No. It's something you pulled out your arse.
Talk to anybody who's worked as a cleaner and ask them which toilets, male or female, tend to be the most disgusting. I'll give you a hint - it aint the boys. Particularly true in venues such as schools, hotels and night clubs.
Frat boys may pee on the floor as a part of an initiation ritual, but they aren't out there spreading lies about men and undermining our freedoms. I can't understand why anybody would try to rationalize false rape accusations on the grounds that fraternities do immature things sometimes.
And why no mention of sororities? Don't they also haze and do weird things? Or are men the only ones who should be crucified for "unbecoming" behavior?
Atom, you've got some serious problems, madam. Go haunt someone else's site. I feel like I need exorcism for my site after you've been here.
To repeat Norm's excellent comment:
Atom constructs a 'frat culture' out of vomiting on floors, then somehow transmogrifies it into a 'rape culture' when the same guys have sex with women students.
It is almost like the 'opposite' of deconstruction.
It is almost like the 'opposite' of deconstruction.
Kind of like "hallucination", don't you think?
Atom, you've got some serious problems, madam. Go haunt someone else's site. I feel like I need exorcism for my site after you've been here.
I appreciate how you feel about the whole thing, Pierce, but isn't there some value in exposing these people's mental illness for everyone to see? Week in and week out you publish stories of things which could not happen in a sane world with sane people involved. Yet, at the cultural level the strategy being pursued to deal with the entire issue of false accusations seems to presume that those involved are mentally healthy and acting in good faith.
At what point does the evidence become compelling enough that this is not the case to merit that being addressed directly?
BTW, I just saw on newsday that Danmell Ndonye will not be charged. http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/da-no-charges-for-hofstra-gang-rape-accuser-1.1475704
At least they did publish her name.
The intent of my post was to point out the naive statement you put in parentheses -- nothing more. Remember, we're talking about Hofstra where Greek fraternities exist.
I noticed, too, that although all of you belittled my knowledge of frat culture, not one of you commented on the "pong" gang. Are any of you aware that this game is played with the expressed intention of getting "ass"?
Please do some research before you spout off about Greek life, which you apparently know nothing about.
Again, false accusations suck, but the acute problem is actual Rape.
One thing we men tend not to ask ourselves is how readily we would go to the police to make a false report that would put someone away for many years - just to deceive someone else and maintain a false image.
If a young man were to do such a thing, we wouldn't dismiss it as a case of a kid in a tight spot doing something stupid. We would sense a malice in him that set him apart.
It takes some mettle to walk into a police station and lie to police officers. The only sort of guy that would attempt such a thing is one with a supreme confidence in his ability to deceive, a belief that no matter what he did no harm would come to him, and yes, a malicious desire to harm others.
Young men lie to police about who was driving when they were drunk, or where they were when a crime happened, but police involvement isn't something they initiated. What's more, their lies are not commonly constructed to incriminate someone else on very serious charges. If they were, we would treat them far harsher than Ndonye is currently being treated.
Ndonye has already shown herself to be a calculating and manipulative individual - her crime against 5 men was carried out to deceive a sixth. That she is afforded so much sympathy is beyond belief. She's a crook.
Something that is rarely gone into is how much women delight in the misfortune of others. I can remember when teachers still punished errant behavior with a strap across the hand in front of the rest of the class - it was more humiliating than painful. I had my share along with most of the other boys - it was the Ritalin of the time. (Yes, most of the other boys. Very occasionally a girl would get strapped, but only by a women teacher).
One of the lasting impressions I had was that of so many girls in the class smiling with pleasure at the sight of a boy getting punished - especially if he was emotionally affected in some way, like a tear coming to his eye (the boy who took it with indifference was a disappointment to them).
It seems highly likely to me that if some women enjoy the spectacle of men being punished and humiliated, a few will actively set about making it happen.
Ndonye's attorney, Bruce Barket, said ...(other things and)
...she would not be returning to Hofstra as a student.
For those interested in vengeance, the stupid kid certainly has screwed up her own life but good. Remember Monica Lewinsky, Bill Clinton's "humidor"? I saw an interview with her some time back and she is basically in hiding still 10 years later. She says no one will date her, and no one wants to hire her. I seriously doubt that she will ever wash the stink off. With all the rage this case brought out, I'll bet this girl has things even worse.
From the perspective of those of us concerned about false accusations, this outcome just strengthens our case. When the next liar gets outed, the ghost of this case and the ghost of Duke will make the deniers look even worse.
I love the fact that some are trying to spin this as the guys are disgusting and wrong. The best part is this girl chose to do this WHEN SHE HAD A BOYFRIEND. I have yet to see any mainstream coverage really point out this fact and question her "morals" like they love to do for the males. Not only did she commit a crime making false allegations, but she CHOSE to have a gang bang with a few guys while she's in a relationship. Poor innocent her.
Please do some research before you spout off about Greek life, which you apparently know nothing about.
You are the one who has been spouting off about it. Apparently you were tied up and dragged into it and forced to participate, just like Danmel Ndonye was dragged into a bathroom and tied up and forced to participate in sex.
Oh, wait, Danmel Ndonye's story was a lie - she did it willingly.
Hm?
Wow, I'll bet her parents are really proud of her, "seriously troubled" would not begin to describe what my old man would have made me if I had ever pulled something like this.
Wonder when the next time she will ever get a date will be?
Anon, by the same token, the only sort of guy who would commit Rape is a guy with a supreme confidence in his ability to deceive, a belief that no matter what he did, no harm would come to him, and yes, a malicious desire to harm others.
I understand your plight, but do ANY of you understand the reverse situation?
Are we to believe that NO
MAN ON THIS SITE OR ANYOTHER MRA SITE is guilty of rape? By your own statistics, this doesn't make sense.
Atom said:
"Again, false accusations suck, but the acute problem is actual Rape."
I'd be happy to engage you in serious discourse about this, but you see, here's my problem: Steve and I have posted about a thousand posts on this site, and I've examined issues relating to false rape claims from every angle imaginable, citing all manner of very serious, hard evidence, and very serious writers who've examined these issues. Then, mirabile dictu, from out of nowhere, you breeze onto our site and make off-the-cuff statements backed up by precisely zero evidence.
One can imagine how seriously I take your assertions, madam.
Some friendly advice from someone's who's made a hell of a lot of money over the years convincing judges to accept my positions in court: if your goal is to raise awareness about rape, your cavalier treatment of these very serious issues does more harm to your cause than good.
Kindly go to a site that deals with rape. We deal with false rape claims here.
your cavalier treatment of these very serious issues does more harm to your cause than good.
And that is the twisted paradox of the position that women have taken WRT this case. They would have done far more for their cause if they had thrown this girl under the bus (and yes, now that it is resolved, she really is just a stupid girl).
But, by taking such a hard line, and being so rigid in their defense of a known liar, as well as dimissing and minimizing men's concerns while shrieking like broken records "THE REAL PROBLEM IS RAPE" they have made themselves look like lying malicious idiots who would support a turnip if it turned out to have a vagina and claimed to have been raped.
A woman can tell a lie, and 90% of the women out there will swear to it.
Congratulations you stupid bimbos, you have just set your cause back 30 years by being so greedy and dishonest. There are very few people left (except yourselves) whose first thought on hearing the next accusation is "I wonder if this is another lie."
Correction -
There are very few people left (except yourselves) whose first thought on hearing the next accusation won't be "I wonder if this is another lie."
"Anon, by the same token, the only sort of guy who would commit Rape is a guy with a supreme confidence in his ability to deceive, a belief that no matter what he did, no harm would come to him, and yes, a malicious desire to harm others.
I understand your plight, but do ANY of you understand the reverse situation?"
Oh, you mean there are rapists out there who are known beyond doubt to have committed their crime, but the DA dropped charges just so long as they admitted it?
You're a joke lady. Go annoy someone else.
I understand your plight,
No, you don't. You are lying. A flat assertion which directly contridicts everything else you say is not compelling. You have no blue-gun thugs to sick on us to force us to do what you want. You have consistently presented a distorted view of the situation, consistently tried to deny what is being said, and consistently tried to twist everything back to "women are always the victim, and can only be victims."
You have lost ALL credibility, and worse you have lost all concern. You cannot go after people demonstrating clear and malicious intent to do them harm, and then get them to have sympathy for your "suffering." You create enemies by being an enemy, and force people to choose between your concerns and theirs. People will always pick their own.
In short, no one could have possibly done more to damage the cause you are claiming to support than you have.
Pierce, I think Deborrah Cooper may be the worst man-hater I've seen cited here, which is saying alot.
Anon at 9:57: I had trouble reading her article because it so infuriated me. I can truthfully say that this is about the worst I've seen in some time.
Sometimes the level of hatred, and injustice, is so severe, I seriously think of taking a few months off. It eats away at your soul to read this day in and day out.
Not true, Anon. I abhore those who would dare falsely accuse a man of rape.
But to malign me and others who ask you to consider opposing viewpoints is NOT beneficial to your crusade. If you continue to do that, WHO will listen ... who will care?
"But to malign me and others who ask you to consider opposing viewpoints is NOT beneficial to your crusade. If you continue to do that, WHO will listen ... who will care?"
The trouble is that you are intent on minimizing the false rape problem and on suggesting that we have blown false rape out of proportion without knowing what you're talking about, madam. FRS agrees rape is a serious problem, OK? But that's not our focus here. It's like someone insisting on talking about wine on a baseball site. Rape is serious, but false rape is also a serious problem, and my tolerance is not unlimited for efforts, such as yours, to suggest the contrary without objectively verifiable evidence.
The difference is that the government isn't helping rapists. It is enabling false rape accusations on a massive scale.
Anon at 10:17: Right. That's probably the main reason that false rape claims are a more serious problem than rape right now.
Remember, it is women who are empowered, not girls. Girls are entitled to delay their womanhood as long as they want. Even 'til age 80 in some states.
"I understand your plight, but do ANY of you understand the reverse situation?"
Well, then I must assume that you are also going to feminist sites and typing comments that say, "do ANY of you women understand the plight of the falsely accused?" Or at least that you are going to 'Black Power' sites and asking if they can see things from the white poinit of view.
If you are not doing that, then you don't understand the plight we are in when we get pseudo-trolls on here. You know, we really don't have to respond to your ass anyway. We are doing you a favor, and you don't seem to understand that.
"Talk to anybody who's worked as a cleaner and ask them which toilets, male or female, tend to be the most disgusting"
Embarassing to admit, but my first 'real' job was at a busboy back when Marriott was still in the restaurant business. Guess who had to sweep the restrooms at closing? Guess which one always had used tampons all over the floor? Gross!!
Norm and Gwallan, that seems to be a widespread view about women's rooms. Disgusting.
Again, I disagree. My husband and I have separate bathrooms. Mine is always immaculate. His always needs cleaning before the maid comes. To hear him splash around and shave in the morning, you'd think he was King Kong.
Yet western men continue to date western women!
The only way do destroy feminism is to breed them out!This should achieved via the marriage/baby strike.
Give western women the boy friend/Hubby they deserve - NONE.
Atom said...
Now this is typical female logic, one bathroom is seen as all the other bathrooms in the world.
Atom is a moron.
"I disagree. My husband and I have separate bathrooms."
You are a dunce.
Unless you're living in a commune or hostel, I assume you are not talking about public restrooms? That is what we were talking about.
Even if you merely inserted that comment to obfuscate the issue, or just to whine, you're still a dunce.
"To hear him splash around and shave in the morning, you'd think he was King Kong."
That is no doubt because he has the smaller bathroom of the two of you...and he cannot avoid hitting things with his elbows, etc.
...DUNCE!!
" Atom said...
Again, I disagree. My husband and I have separate bathrooms. Mine is always immaculate. His always needs cleaning before the maid comes. To hear him splash around and shave in the morning, you'd think he was King Kong.
Sep 25, 2009 11:25:00 PM"
My Toyota blew up the other day, better go put Toyota out of business.
One man rapes a women and all men are rapists.
One women lies about a rape and all women are liers.
The screen on an i-phone cracked, better recall millions of i-phones.
A stupid cow rips into a guy at my local shopping mall the other day accusing him of looking at her boobs.He was blind!The guide dag thought it was funny!
Atom said...
...the only sort of guy who would commit Rape is a guy with a supreme confidence in his ability to deceive, a belief that no matter what he did, no harm would come to him, and yes, a malicious desire to harm others.
And your qualifications for making this observation are?
Do you work in the field? Do you work with victims or perpetrators?
Actually it's pretty clear you don't.
"the only sort of guy"????? Sheesh.
Here's a proven defining characteristic among real rapists for you. More than half of the men who are imprisoned for rapes were molested by a woman as a kid. (59% - Petrovich and Templer 1984, 66% - Groth 1979, 80% - Briere and Smiljanich 1993, 75% - Clarke 2004)
Atom said...
Are we to believe that NO MAN ON THIS SITE OR ANY OTHER MRA SITE is guilty of rape?
How do we know YOU are not a rapist?
Atom said...
Again, I disagree. My husband and I have separate bathrooms. Mine is always immaculate. His always needs cleaning before the maid comes. To hear him splash around and shave in the morning, you'd think he was King Kong.
For goodness sake. So effing what. And why the hell are you cleaning BEFORE the maid comes?
For the record I've cleaned office, commercial and domestic environments. Every cleaner would echo what I said.
Regarding gender behaviour...folk who work in venues which host strip shows for both genders will assure you that one gender is far more likely to trash the venue and assault the performers. To which gender do you think they may be referring?
gwallan berates one of his MRA peers for using the following verbage:
"The only sort of guy who would commit Rape is a guy with a supreme confidence in his ability to deceive, a belief that no matter what he did, no harm would come to him, and yes, a malicious desire to harm others."
You see, Gwallan, all I did was copy the above sentence and change the pronouns to apply to the other gender.
So, YES, his exact words were,
"the only sort of ______ "
Thanks for the statistical information. I gave a verifiable source for my statistics too, but the info was ignored. Hmm, go figgger.
And shame on you ... try to stay out of those seedy strip joints. I am much too classy to set foot in one of those dives!
Regarding my bathroom post, you guys are humorless. Humor creates laughter for the soul. Work on it.
Regarding my bathroom post, you guys are humorless. Humor creates laughter for the soul. Work on it.
Oh, we laugh plenty - at you, not with you. Gentlemen consider it "impolite" to publicly make fun of (mental) cripples.
Atom - "Regarding my bathroom post, you guys are humorless. Humor creates laughter for the soul. Work on it."
That was intended as humor? Really?
Here's a thought: When attempting humor, it helps to say something that is funny.
Your noting that your husband was like King Kong came across more as your contempt for him and his slovenly behavior as opposed to a humorous comment.
Statistics reveal that rapists are just common criminals who happen to rape, not a special breed of criminals. Paroled rapists who offend again commit a crime other than rape the vast majority of the time.
Which is why it's so strange that rapists have a recidivism rate more than one third lower than that of general felons. Based on that, you have to conclude that rapists either have higher moral character than other criminals, or that an awful lot of convicted rapists are really innocent.
"Which is why it's so strange that rapists have a recidivism rate more than one third lower than that of general felons. Based on that, you have to conclude that rapists either have higher moral character than other criminals, or that an awful lot of convicted rapists are really innocent"
And that is the profound truth!
Our little community has just arrested ANOTHER man for rape. Everyone knows that his x-wife is the accuser AND has only caused him problem after problem.
Why is Law Enforcement charging these guys? Does the county get money from the state if they have all these violent crimes?
I am as mad with Law Enforcement as I am these idiot false accusers.
CBGirl
Well Slwerner, you don't have to get so HUFFY~~! I mean you could at least pretend to laugh, *snort
Maybe you aren't funny. Ridiculous yes, funny no.
Atom,
regarding your bathroom post, I agree - it was laughable.
@Atom...
1. I am not an MRA.
2. I am an advocate for victims of child sexual abuse and well known as such.
3. I have corrected numerous statements in this environment including some by your hosts.
4. You are not immune from my correction.
5. I am also a tax consultant. Among my clients have been strippers AND prostitutes. Should I discard those clients?
6. Seedy? In my city we don't have permanent venues of this type. In the past some of the larger hotels occasionally hosted shows like the Chippendales and Gold Coast Girls. My cousin, the local state MP, campaigned against female strip shows a decade ago so they started avoiding us. The male strip shows continued(strangely my feminist cousin didn't see the need to protest these) but gradually the venues started refusing them because the patrons, largely female, would behave atrociously. My knowledge of this comes mostly from the publicans themselves who didn't enjoy seeing their business premises trashed or their employees sexually assaulted. They'd been happy to host these things at the start because the male audiences had always been relatively well behaved. Little did they know.
Yup, its best to be careful when it comes to rapes. To many people are being wrongfully accused of rapes in India. Why cant we have a 'sex consent form'. In fact MensXP has once again hit the nail on the head. Be safe than get arrested for consensual sex: http://www.mensxp.com/Article.aspx?id=1979
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